Intellivision Amico - Tommy Tallarico introduction + Q&A

4 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

I haven't been here for a while, but what's this about 10 frames of lag and where did it come from?

I saw it on Reddit, where it was apparently quoted from a YouTube video in which couple of guys were bagging on the Amico.
 

To be frank?  These days it’s difficult to separate legitimate criticism from people simply slamming a product for more YouTube (or other social media) likes. Maybe these guys have a legitimate concern, but I don’t see that they do. One way or the other, I tend to stay out of discussions like that. 

14 minutes ago, TMPiper said:

I saw it on Reddit, where it was apparently quoted from a YouTube video in which couple of guys were bagging on the Amico.
 

To be frank?  These days it’s difficult to separate legitimate criticism from people simply slamming a product for more YouTube (or other social media) likes. Maybe these guys have a legitimate concern, but I don’t see that they do. One way or the other, I tend to stay out of discussions like that. 

Unless the individual responsible for saying this has done scientific testing using the actual Amico hardware and software in person and is able to prove their findings through experimentation that is repeatable by others (and thereby can either be confirmed or found to be false by other people), which I highly doubt, whatever argument they may have is completely invalid. It's entirely possible that the system does in fact inherently have 10 frames of lag, but until it's available for actual public use, this can't be proven. If the system launches and it does have a lot of lag, that can be confirmed through testing and research, and then it's a problem. Until then...

8 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

is able to prove their findings through experimentation that is repeatable by others (and thereby can either be confirmed or found to be false by other people)

The very ground of modern physics, enunciated by Galileo de Galilei in the late sixteenth century. Incontrovertible.

2 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

The very ground of modern physics, enunciated by Galileo de Galilei in the late sixteenth century. Incontrovertible.

Exactly~

Can't argue with unbiased science... unless additional unbiased science proves earlier unbiased science to be wrong, which does happen. As I greatly appreciate the care put into unbiased lag testing at places like RetroRGB and firmly believe in and support what Bob does over there, seeing some random dude on Reddit claim that an unreleased system has 10 frames of lag without doing any actual testing just makes me laugh at them. While it's entirely possible this is true, well... we'll see. As long as it doesn't affect the system badly, it doesn't really matter. The Sega Genesis Mini and Mega Drive Mini has 3~7 frames of variable lag, for example, and that's been proven (by Bob over at RetroRGB, for that matter). People who are not me seem to love the Genesis Mini, so yeah.

Now, I HIGHLY doubt that average Amico users will even know exactly what input delay is and they most definitely won't know how to test for it, so is it really a problem? Maybe. We'll see. Most modern displays and all wireless controllers have some sort of delay and Bluetooth itself has a relatively high degree of lag compared to some other wireless solutions (2.4GHz), but it generally works just fine and I highly doubt that it will be an issue, especially since I have heard that most modern games are designed to compensate for both of these aspects somehow. As I'm not a developer myself, I can't say exactly how this works, though.

4 hours ago, TMPiper said:

I saw it on Reddit, where it was apparently quoted from a YouTube video in which couple of guys were bagging on the Amico.
 

To be frank?  These days it’s difficult to separate legitimate criticism from people simply slamming a product for more YouTube (or other social media) likes. Maybe these guys have a legitimate concern, but I don’t see that they do. One way or the other, I tend to stay out of discussions like that. 

I've said this months ago about this whole thing and still feel the same.  Until you physically own the product...how can you form such a biased opinion be it good or bad?  

I'm holding my words until I own it.  As far as I'm concerned, that's the ONLY way I can ever form an opinion on anything.  I have to own it, see it, be a part of it... Etc...whatever it might be. Movies, old toys, Retropie, arcade cabinets, products, guns, cars... Etc.. I have to own them and  use/watch/repair...etc.  

I've gotten to the point now that  I've lost interest in all this because it's all hype.  I'm excited to own an Amico, but I also own 5 arcade machines I built, 3 Retropie units I programmed from initial build images, several old consoles I restored and repaired, an old car I partially restored, a Harley Davidson FXDWG I customized... On and on. Why do I mention this... Because in order to stand at a car show, ride a to a biker rally, offer help on a Retropie forum, give advice on building arcade machines... You have to know what the hell you're talking about...and not ONE of these guys do....because no one other than Intellivision Entertainment owns this product as of today.

My point is... When I own it...I will take it apart, learn it, get into what makes it work, play it and enjoy it... THEN opinionate on it.  Good or bad.  Until then... Nada.

8 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

I haven't been here for a while, but what's this about 10 frames of lag and where did it come from? In any case, it wasn't from the final version of the game. 10 frames of lag at 59.94Hz is atrocious and would make pretty much anything aside from something like chess or a turn-based RPG unplayable or close to unplayable. That's somewhere around Stadia levels of input lag. There is a method to accurately measure input lag, but that requires having the system, the controller, the game, something like the Time Sleuth, soldering skills, math skills, and a high-speed camera... not likely in this case, I think.

The lag discussion is from this video where the guy analyzes the finnigan fox demo.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kBqYWYsAolA

kBqYWYsAolA

It's not hard to measure latency from a video like this.  You can't measure it precisely to the millisecond but you can count frames.  Latency exists with everything, wireless controllers, console hardware, game software, and televisions.  So it's impossible to know what is contributing to the problem lag in this case.  You'd think they'd have a low latency TV that's set properly but who knows.   Even if most people might not notice it, that doesn't means it's not detrimentally effecting their experience and I wouldn't compare it to an inexpensive emulation box.  IE would want to minimise it as much as possible because they can't control what TV people use.  It wouldn't be surprising that game software that's in the middle of development hasn't been optimised yet, so there's little point of making a big deal about it now.  Only IE knows if there's excessive lag in their hardware.

8 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

I haven't been here for a while, but what's this about 10 frames of lag and where did it come from? In any case, it wasn't from the final version of the game. 10 frames of lag at 59.94Hz is atrocious and would make pretty much anything aside from something like chess or a turn-based RPG unplayable or close to unplayable. That's somewhere around Stadia levels of input lag. There is a method to accurately measure input lag, but that requires having the system, the controller, the game, something like the Time Sleuth, soldering skills, math skills, and a high-speed camera... not likely in this case, I think.

I did some research on this because I was curious too.  So they downloaded the youtube video in 60 fps and used VLC to go frame-by-frame and analyze the movement with frames.  They basically counted 10 frames in between movement.  According to how you would break this down into readable terms, you would have to do 10/60 = .160 so that's the equivalent of 160ms of lag.  For laymen, that would seem like a ping of 160 in a multiplayer game.  I didn't make this method up, this was logic used by others to review videos of project xcloud and stadia.

I'm not disputing the video, BUT there are some factors not being taken into account.

1. Unfinished software and hardware (obvious point, but needs to be said again)
2. UI and other gameplay videos, like Astrosmash, don't seem to show this same lag (only in my limited testing)
3. Forward momentum - characters generally have some forward momentum, so you are not supposed to turn on a dime (vary by software title)

Overall I think the method is flawed because there are too many unknown variables, but I have never created a videogame either.  From the video, it actually looks fine and I agree with others I am not worried.  I hope that helps someone.

Remote Life looks like an amazing shooter, not sure if Amico could handle it, but it would be cool if it could 👍😀

Forward momentum in videogames?  I know they programmed that in intellivision nhl hockey; making the game feel sluggish.  It would be unusual in an arcade style action or platform game.

Hey guys. I don't have any idea on the subject, so I googled "consoles with more input lag" and found this: https://danluu.com/input-lag/

It looks like 80s computers had much less input lag than modern ones! Interesting...

I wonder if there's a full list of consoles sorted by input lag somewhere.

55 minutes ago, mr_me said:

The lag discussion is from this video where the guy analyzes the finnigan fox demo.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kBqYWYsAolA

kBqYWYsAolA

 

It's not hard to measure latency from a video like this.  You can't measure it precisely to the millisecond but you can count frames.  Latency exists with everything, wireless controllers, console hardware, game software, and televisions.  So it's impossible to know what is contributing to the problem lag in this case.  You'd think they'd have a low latency TV that's set properly but who knows.   Even if most people might not notice it, that doesn't means it's not detrimentally effecting their experience and I wouldn't compare it to an inexpensive emulation box.  IE would want to minimise it as much as possible because they can't control what TV people use.  It wouldn't be surprising that game software that's in the middle of development hasn't been optimised yet, so there's little point of making a big deal about it now.  Only IE knows if there's excessive lag in their hardware.

The thing is that whoever did this did not lag test the display, which is why you'd need to use the Time Sleuth to find and discard the display's lag to find the system's actual lag,

Actually, I take this back. It's not the system's lag, it's a combination of the system itself + the input delay of the wireless controller. Anyway...

which is why any "lag testing" from anyone other than Intellivision at this point doesn't matter, especially since the system isn't finalized yet. Like you said, we'll see, as there's no point in thinking about it now.

52 minutes ago, ZippyTheGrunt said:

I did some research on this because I was curious too.  So they downloaded the youtube video in 60 fps and used VLC to go frame-by-frame and analyze the movement with frames.  They basically counted 10 frames in between movement.  According to how you would break this down into readable terms, you would have to do 10/60 = .160 so that's the equivalent of 160ms of lag.  For laymen, that would seem like a ping of 160 in a multiplayer game.  I didn't make this method up, this was logic used by others to review videos of project xcloud and stadia.

 

I'm not disputing the video, BUT there are some factors not being taken into account.

1. Unfinished software and hardware (obvious point, but needs to be said again)
2. UI and other gameplay videos, like Astrosmash, don't seem to show this same lag (only in my limited testing)
3. Forward momentum - characters generally have some forward momentum, so you are not supposed to turn on a dime (vary by software title)

Overall I think the method is flawed because there are too many unknown variables, but I have never created a videogame either.  From the video, it actually looks fine and I agree with others I am not worried.  I hope that helps someone.

 

See above ^

42 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Forward momentum in videogames?  I know they programmed that in intellivision nhl hockey; making the game feel sluggish.  It would be unusual in an arcade style action or platform game.

...you've never played Mario or Sonic? Those absolutely have momentum...

On 2/7/2021 at 8:55 AM, Intellivision Master said:

Tommy,

 

For the in game music when you do Sea Battle & Sub Hunt, maybe have the Crimson Tide movie theme play.  Of course you would have to get permission.  It's an epic piece and would sound awesome for these games.  The composer who did the music for the movie was Hans Zimmer.

I love Hans Zimmers' score for Crimson Tide and have spoken with him about how he created it.  But my favorite part of the entire score (which is what we were discussing) is the Eternal Father, Strong to Save aka The Navel Hymn which he so beautifully recreated.
 

Although hearing it sung live by the Navy is just as powerful:

The song is used by both the British & U.S. Navy and was originally written in the 1800's.


I would DEFINITELY recreate this incredible song for the opening of Sea Battle or Sub Hunt.  Whichever comes first.

 

32 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

The thing is that whoever did this did not lag test the display, which is why you'd need to use the Time Sleuth to find and discard the display's lag to find the system's actual lag, which is why any "lag testing" from anyone other than Intellivision at this point doesn't matter, especially since the system isn't finalized yet. Like you said, we'll see, as there's no point in thinking about it now.

It might be important for IE to figure that out to solve the problem but it's not necessary for anyone else to see the problem.  Assuming they are using a television with decent latency, it's still too much lag.  But if it's just the game software than there isn't really a problem because that's easy for them to know.

On 2/7/2021 at 11:13 AM, Intellivision Master said:

If we get a physical bowling game, it can come with a bowling ball.  Lol.  If we get a physical golf game, it can include a golf club.  Lol.  It'll be neat to see what comes with the physical media.  Hopefully Tommy is going to show what it looks like before launch.  I know he showed some people what it looks like.  

Xavix already did all that.



And it even came before the Wii!  Unfortunately... unlike the Wii... the games were crappy.

11 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

I would DEFINITELY recreate this incredible song for the opening of Sea Battle or Sub Hunt.  Whichever comes first.

That's awesome Tommy.  Thank you.  Yes the Navel Hymn is very beautiful.  

1 minute ago, mr_me said:

It might be important for IE to figure that out to solve the problem but it's not necessary for anyone else to see the problem.  Assuming they are using a television with decent latency, it's still too much lag.  But if it's just the game software than there isn't really a problem because that's easy for them to know..

Exactly. Intellivision's internal tests are literally the only thing that matters, and they are under no obligation to share the results of any such testing. There's a massive earthquake happening right now and it's really hard to type, so I'll just end it with this for now...

On 2/7/2021 at 11:28 AM, Intellivision Master said:

I know it's not Amico related but wanted to share.

 

https://www.cbr.com/tommy-tallarico-terminator-video-game-music-revolution/

Thanks for posting.  It was a very humbling article and nice to see others talking about things I did in my career about 30 years ago.  That website has over 60 million visitors and even their YouTube channel has 3.5 million subscribers.

We reached out to the author and they are now doing a big Amico feature and interview.

Cool stuff!

Yay, I'm alive. Magnitude 7.1:

https://weathernews.jp/s/topics/202102/132308quake/

On 2/7/2021 at 12:44 PM, seventh sage said:

That was good to see the new Finnegan Fox trailer.

I agree with some of the criticism- mainly minor things like the shadows and animations which I assume can be easily modified.

I was also confused by the multiple hearts and easy mode, since it was not mentioned in the video that there would be a hard mode. Additionally info I was seeing on the subreddit was echoing the "Amico made for kids, therefore only easy games" which put me off- that would be nice to know if there'll be multiple modes in future demo trailers, given I didn't read all the comments.

Otherwise, and now that I know what I know, I'm still excited about this title. Based on the launch library, I think this'll be my first purchase.

Yeah... I think some folks may have misinterpreted what I was saying in the video.  Which is understandable.  What I meant is that our games aren't built around being FRUSTRATING.  So many times people are concerned with "hours of gameplay" and getting value out of $20 - $70 games.  And some folks just like to play super difficult experiences.  And all of those things are fine (I'm not putting any of it down).  But for our experiences... we like the approach of "challenging" without being difficult or frustrating.  I think our Moon Patrol demo on our Amico Club app is a perfect example.  It's not "easy"... yet it's not difficult.  It's challenging without being overbearing and impossible.  You always feel you can reach the next area as you're learning as you go.  

I've had many conversations with the great Shigeru Miyamoto about this.  You'll notice that almost all of his Mario games are like this as well.  Super Mario World being a perfect example.  Always feeling like your progressing and then eventually beating the game is a GREAT and POSITIVE feeling.  Not being able to get very far in the castle of Ghosts n' Goblins because you need to be pixel perfect and have a bit of luck because frustrating and annoying to the point of putting down the game and never completing it.  The average person clearly prefers Miyamoto's style of game design and I'm definitely in agreement.

We'll probably stick to the 3 difficulty levels, but we are seeing if just 2 makes sense.

On 2/7/2021 at 6:19 PM, Cranker said:

I think I asked this question before but I forgot the answer. Will I be able to pre-order extra controllers , physical media , Amico case and whatever else so I get it all together with my FE ? Or will I be able to pre-order the rest in Canada 🇨🇦 ? Be fun to get it all in one box but will I get abused on border charges ? Lol 😂 

You'll be able to get all of those things at retail in Canada... so no need to incur extra shipping charges & custom duties from the U.S.!

6 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Yay, I'm alive. Magnitude 7.1:

 

https://weathernews.jp/s/topics/202102/132308quake/

Wow stay safe and watch out for those aftershocks 

On 2/7/2021 at 6:44 PM, Jeffrey Bouchard said:

I would love to know this as well though I am in the US.

In regards to the Founders Editions & VIP Editions... those are packaged and shipped separately. 

On 2/7/2021 at 7:21 PM, Starpaddler said:

Graphic must be from one of the harder levels given the size of those mountains.  🤪
 

For those that may have noticed, I haven't been here since the end of December as I came down pretty hard with COVID.  Had high fever at home for 10 days before needing to be hospitalized for nearly 3 weeks. Finally back at home 😁 and on my way to recovery. 

 

Getting stronger every day, but I’m told I will likely be closer to being in the 3 months camp, then the 6 weeks camp estimated for recovery (seems like there may be 2 trajectories for those knocked down like me)

My wife and son caught this as well, all of us on the same day.  My son was down 2 days and bounced back immediately, my wife was sick for about 2 weeks and is still fatigued from time to time but is generally doing well.  She was fortunate to avoid the hospital. 
 

Happy to finally be back here and need to catch up on posts (over 30 pages worth)

 

Stay safe all and take it from me; make that plan A, cause plan B sucks. 
 

One thing I did learn - My understanding was you head to the ER if you have issues breathing, which for me didn’t happen until day 10; but because I had been infected for so long before going in, they almost didn’t give me the anti-virals that I believe ended up saving my life (some of the docs felt it was too late to provide benefit). As such, my recommendation is to ensure you are SEEN for any symptoms lasting longer then 5 days to ensure you make the window I nearly missed.  

 

So great to have you back!!!  And looking forward to meeting you in person whenever you feel up to it.

Can't wait for you and your wife to play Amico at our offices!!

On 2/8/2021 at 8:23 AM, Intellivision Master said:

Tommy,

 

For the retro games on Amico, will there be an opening cut scene?  Some retro games in the past had cut scenes that helped with the story.  Such as Ninja Gaiden on NES.  It would be cool to see this with the retro re-imagined games.   

Some of them... but they will be very short and will look cool.  Astrosmash is a good example.  And wait til you see the ending level and how the game ends!!  Or does it?

On 2/8/2021 at 9:11 AM, LePionnier said:

An explanation of what is happening in the game, what our character trying to fullfill is always something I like to have in a game.

We don't need a 15 minutes movie sessions ! It could be only a little 10-20 seconds.

Maybe it's not possible for all games but I Hope it is for most of them !

We can have coop mode, versus mode, team mode, and story mode ( not solo mode ! 😁) And some story mode will have more than one player (Cloudy Mountain).

By the way, I hope Dynablaster (Bomberman) will also have a story mode so I could play when I am alone !
 

Exactly!  I agree with you.  10 - 20 seconds is fine.  15 minutes is annoying.