Independent Amico Discussion Thread

[MrBeefy]

19 minutes ago, Swami said:

...and then you've got the 14 year old kid who has Manhunter 2 (AO) on his Christmas list (from an article I read). I think there's probably more problems than just communication there.

Oh definitely! 

[+Swami]

54 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

Here let me help https://www.statista.com/statistics/246738/average-spend-on-mobile-games/

 

This data suggests the Amico expects that demographic to spend 3 times the amount. Yes there are more casuals but casuals do not spend as much. That is why I did my Atari (for illustrative purposes) post. 

 

You add more people in there will naturally be more money spent, but that does not mean individually they spend more. Those who are getting the Founders Edition have just spent close to 4 times the amount a casual gamer does in a year. 

 

 

 It's still not the graph I was referring to as it had more stuff and was people vs money, but it's similar.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-25/video-game-sales-set-to-reverse

[+Swami]

55 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

Here let me help https://www.statista.com/statistics/246738/average-spend-on-mobile-games/

 

This data suggests the Amico expects that demographic to spend 3 times the amount. Yes there are more casuals but casuals do not spend as much. That is why I did my Atari (for illustrative purposes) post. 

 

You add more people in there will naturally be more money spent, but that does not mean individually they spend more. Those who are getting the Founders Edition have just spent close to 4 times the amount a casual gamer does in a year. 

 

 

Here's a better graph of what you were posting. Per person it is nearly equal. Still a big market.

 

http://www.rakutenintelligence.com/blog/2016/hardly-pocket-change-mobile-gamers-spend-an-average-of-87-dollars-on-in-app-purchases

 

[MrBeefy]

30 minutes ago, Swami said:

wrong graph for what i was talking about.

Maybe but both go a long together because how many play mobile vs how much money is spent on mobile keeps coming up.

 

No one has talked about how that cam still be misleading. The 'hardcore' market shows itself to be willing to spend more money on their games amd consoles. There may be more casuals but they spend less and the Amico will triple their gaming expenses.

 

How much total dollars is brought up but I don't think anyone has brought up the data I just did. That's why I was getting tired of hearing about the data.

 

The only thing priced on this for casuals is the games. The console is priced for more 'hardcore' gamers than casuals. The $150-$180 mark was only doubling casual expenses, but now its tripled. If you get a limited one its basically quadrupled. No one talks about that dollar data.

 

 

[+Swami]

4 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

Maybe but both go a long together because how many play mobile vs how much money is spent on mobile keeps coming up.

 

No one has talked about how that cam still be misleading. The 'hardcore' market shows itself to be willing to spend more money on their games amd consoles. There may be more casuals but they spend less and the Amico will triple their gaming expenses.

 

How much total dollars is brought up but I don't think anyone has brought up the data I just did. That's why I was getting tired of hearing about the data.

 

The only thing priced on this for casuals is the games. The console is priced for more 'hardcore' gamers than casuals. The $150-$180 mark was only doubling casual expenses, but now its tripled. If you get a limited one its basically quadrupled. No one talks about that dollar data.

 

 

Nearly equal spending per person, see my previous post, and that was 2015.

[MrBeefy]

6 minutes ago, Swami said:

Nearly equal spending per person, see my previous post, and that was 2015.

The problem with that article is that it wasn't clear as to where the $87 came from. Was it the top 10% whale? Overall average? I thought it was talking about average microtransactions.

 

Heck this article says only $42ish per year on mobile? And points out that microtransactions are in the $80 range. 

https://gamingshift.com/how-much-money-does-the-average-person-spend-on-video-games/

 

 

It also suggests this....

The average PC gamer is likely to spend more money on cosmetics, characters, weapon skins, etc. compared to the average mobile or console gamer. But mobile gaming revenue is higher than PC gaming revenue, because of the sheer volume of mobile gamers who match PC and console combined.

 

Both of these articles seem to be jumping around on are we talking about micros or overall average.

 

The link I initially provided just says mobile gaming period. Which is from 2018. So that average should include all mobile gaming averaged. I hate articles and why I like Statista. People writing articles do not make the data clear.

 

 

[MrBeefy]

47 minutes ago, Swami said:

Here's a better graph of what you were posting. Per person it is nearly equal. Still a big market.

 

http://www.rakutenintelligence.com/blog/2016/hardly-pocket-change-mobile-gamers-spend-an-average-of-87-dollars-on-in-app-purchases

 

When looking at it again this is referring to the "whales" of mobile gaming and isn't a true average of total mobile gaming. Not every Amico purchaser is going to be a "whale".

 

People like my wife who have her number games and spend $0 did not go into that $87 average.

Edited February 12, 2020 by MrBeefy

[+Swami]

18 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

The problem with that article is that it wasn't clear as to where the $87 came from. Was it the top 10% whale? Overall average? I thought it was talking about average microtransactions.

 

Heck this article says only $42ish per year on mobile? And points out that microtransactions are in the $80 range. 

https://gamingshift.com/how-much-money-does-the-average-person-spend-on-video-games/

 

 

It also suggests this....

The average PC gamer is likely to spend more money on cosmetics, characters, weapon skins, etc. compared to the average mobile or console gamer. But mobile gaming revenue is higher than PC gaming revenue, because of the sheer volume of mobile gamers who match PC and console combined.

 

Both of these articles seem to be jumping around on are we talking about micros or overall average.

 

The link I initially provided just says mobile gaming period. Which is from 2018. So that average should include all mobile gaming averaged. I hate articles and why I like Statista. People writing articles do not make the data clear.

 

 

14 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

When looking at it again this is referring to the "whales" of mobile gaming and isn't a true average of total mobile gaming. Not every Amico purchaser is going to be a "whale".

 

People like my wife who have her number games and spend $0 did not go into that $87 average.

 

The title says "Mobile Gamers spend an *Average* of $87 on in app-purchases. Average. The whales are the top 10% of buyers who make up this average. They spend 90%. The richest 10% of Americans have 90% of the money, so you would expect a curve something like this.

[MrBeefy]

11 minutes ago, Swami said:

 

The title says "Mobile Gamers spend an *Average* of $87 on in app-purchases. Average. The whales are the top 10% of buyers who make up this average.

It is still in app purchases and is not accounting for total cost of game. A $60 Switch game is still $60 but not an in app purchase. Then if that Switch game has in app purchases it will be higher than the $60.

 

You are still tripling the cost of mobile gamers by the price of admission to Amico.

 

That isn't even accounting for if we consider someone who drops $500 on something as being a 'casual' gamer. Lol

[+kevtris]

The in-app purchases can be spread over days, weeks, or months too so that nickel and dimeing doesn't seem so bad to the average user I suspect vs. the big lump sum of $60 or whatever for your average AAA title.  "Well it's only 99 cents for this doodad! that's not bad!" times 50 or 60 over the course of 3 months.  I totally get why they have it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.  It definitely is killing a lot of modern gaming for sure.

 

I was bemused when I watched my friend playing the latest ass-assins creed, which added microtransactions. booooo.   I hope the new elder scrolls game doesn't turn into a microtransaction crapfest but I bet it will. 

[+Swami]

20 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

It is still in app purchases and is not accounting for total cost of game. A $60 Switch game is still $60 but not an in app purchase. Then if that Switch game has in app purchases it will be higher than the $60.

 

You are still tripling the cost of mobile gamers by the price of admission to Amico.

 

That isn't even accounting for if we consider someone who drops $500 on something as being a 'casual' gamer. Lol

Either way, $78 or $87, total per person, not a huge difference. Like I said, I wasn't really pursuing this to begin with. Ultimately, Amico only has to co-opt less than 1% of mobile gamers to be successful.

[MrBeefy]

Just now, Swami said:

Either way, $80 or $87, total per person, not a huge difference. Like I said, I wasn't really pursuing this to begin with. Ultimately, Amico only has to co-opt less than 1% of mobile gamers to be successful.

Oh yeah they don't need all of that market. I think they would have better chances if they kept it around the $150 to $180 mark. I would be curious to see the original controllers since that sounds like the extra $50 cost was to upgrade those.

[+Swami]

16 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

Oh yeah they don't need all of that market. I think they would have better chances if they kept it around the $150 to $180 mark. I would be curious to see the original controllers since that sounds like the extra $50 cost was to upgrade those.

Maybe. From my experience with searching through Amazon reviews of gaming stuff, people tend to give better reviews to cheaper stuff, even if it’s relatively poor construction and serious gamers say to no-way-in-hell buy the cheaper ones that are 25% the cost. Although, I think serious gamers probably complain about details more. Personally, I’m elated to have the improved capacitative vs resistive. 

[MarioMan88]

Just now, Swami said:

Maybe. From my experience with searching through Amazon reviews of gaming stuff, people tend to give better reviews to cheaper stuff, even if it’s relatively poor construction and serious gamers say to no-way-in-hell buy the cheaper ones. Personally, I’m elated to have the improved controllers. 

Oh I’m stoked they upgraded the controller, as I don’t care about price. However I’ve always thought and personally believed the sweet spot for Amico for casual non gaming bed bath and beyond moms is $199. Think it’s a sure seller at that price!

[Tavi]

22 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

Oh yeah they don't need all of that market. I think they would have better chances if they kept it around the $150 to $180 mark. I would be curious to see the original controllers since that sounds like the extra $50 cost was to upgrade those.

The big problem is the controllers are proprietary to the Amico.

It is not like a Nintendo or PlayStation where if they give you a cheap controller, you can just get one you like better and use it instead.

Tommy had mentioned many times the controllers are unique, and Amico games are going to be specifically designed for them. While you can use a cellphone or alternate controller, and I believe mention at one time was made Bluetooth controllers can link to the console, you will not be getting the full experience.

In short, the console at launch is going to sink or swim in no small part by how the controllers work. The Amico can have the best games ever made, but if the controllers are poor and there is no real alternative to using them, the system is going to rapidly get bad reviews and for a smaller company looking to get themselves (re)established that kind of talk can hurt their sales badly.

I would think that the consoles controllers are one place they absolutely cannot cheap out on.

[+Swami]

4 minutes ago, Tavi said:

The big problem is the controllers are proprietary to the Amico.

It is not like a Nintendo or PlayStation where if they give you a cheap controller, you can just get one you like better and use it instead.

Tommy had mentioned many times the controllers are unique, and Amico games are going to be specifically designed for them. While you can use a cellphone or alternate controller, and I believe mention at one time was made Bluetooth controllers can link to the console, you will not be getting the full experience.

In short, the console at launch is going to sink or swim in no small part by how the controllers work. The Amico can have the best games ever made, but if the controllers are poor and there is no real alternative to using them, the system is going to rapidly get bad reviews and for a smaller company looking to get themselves (re)established that kind of talk can hurt their sales badly.

I would think that the consoles controllers are one place they absolutely cannot cheap out on.

Three things Ouya did wrong from the start, despite selling 100s of 1000s of consoles:

1. Problematic controller and WiFi

2. No great games and non-existent curation

3. Slow getting the consoles shipped

 

I think 3 was probably a forgive and forget if 1 and 2 were handled. I think IE is trying very hard to not repeat 1 and 2. If meeting the $100 mark resulted in the bad controllers and WiFi, they should have broke it. 

[+Tommy Tallarico]

6 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

Despite what you might think. Some of the people you have labeled as 'others' were super positive about Amico. Go look through your Q&A from the beginning. I don't think as many want you to fail as you think.

When did I say in that post that a ton of people want it to fail?  You're unfairly putting words in my mouth. 

 

Now if you want to pretend that isn't the case for some of the folks in here (or certain YouTubers)... that's fine.  But as I've said numerous times the haters are a very very small minority... even in this place. 

 

Amazing that after my post... THAT was your takeaway and the thing that you chose to focus on when responding.

 

 

Quote

 

I do think you need to be careful of the Streisand Effect as I think there has been some of this going on. I think @kevtris was basically alluding to this when trying to tell you to let some things just go. Personally all I've seen happen from this is people who were once positive towards Amico be less so because they are haters trolls or whatever.

 

I don't really think I'm the one who isn't capable of "letting things go" here.  Some folks seem to keep replying and reading in to everything I say. 

 

"What thing can we try to mislabel or twist to prove that Intellivision isn't doing it right, there isn't a market for it, Amico is going to fail, Tommy is lying, etc., etc..."
 

 

Quote

 

The person/people posting the videos saying you have a small willy or whatever ARE NOT going to be convinced to be otherwise, but I think you have alienated some people who were positive towards this and at least were considering it as a purchase. 

 

I apologize to those 3 people at AA who have potentially been mislabeled.
 

 

 

Quote

I might have doubts as well as others and by no means do I think you should or expect you to give up because of it. But just because people have doubts doesn't mean they want it to flop. To paint them that way is only going to discourage them from buying it.

 

Go back and read what I actually said.  I specifically addressed this.  It seems like you missed the entire point of my post.   If that's the way you perceived what I was trying to say... then so be it.  But the reality is that you seem to be the one mislabeling me and saying that I think that people who have doubts want it to flop.  I pretty much said the exact opposite and have noted that many times.

 

If I respond to folks then that means I can't take criticism, I'm just trying to "sell" something or I'm somehow labeling them a hater.  If I don't answer questions then I'm "hiding" something or are making stuff up because I don't footnote common knowledge industry facts.  Some folks will label me, twist what I say and then I'm called unprofessional if I dare to respond back.

 

 

 

 

[+Tommy Tallarico]

p.s.  Here's the link to those statistics some were looking for...

https://tinyurl.com/urjsfxn

 

[spoonman]

17 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

Google it.  Not that difficult.  The numbers are everywhere.

 

3 Billion people play "casual" games (mostly on mobile).  It's not a theory or "extra science-y"... its just data.

 

200 million folks play on console & PC.  Not a theory... just data. 

106 million PS4 systems sold

45 million Switches sold

41 million Xbox One systems sold

---------------------------------------

192 million total for current gen console gamers

 

So by your data only 8 million people game on PC?? My data shows that being between 1 and 2 billion people playing games on their PC. 

Remember.. Causal games. If you're going to count mobile phones that ship with Snake you also must count people playing solitaire, or those awful Facebook games on their PC. 

 

And are we not counting previous gen consoles which so many people still play? I'm guessing there are millions of families who still play their Wii.. Xbox 360, PS3.. Even the classics such as NES. Portables too, such as 3DS, are still being played. 

 

20 hours ago, 1001lives said:

I think the EWJ fear may be a little misguided. There's no one else that would do it more justice than the original team. You couldn't ask for a better scenario as an EWJ fan. 

 

EWJ may be a bigger/more expensive title for all we know. It's getting a dedicated physical release, too. 

 

It's deifntely getting a physical copy? And it'll be priced the same as the digital download EWJ.. $9.99 or less?

Does Amico use discs, cartridges, SDcards.. Has it been announced or shown yet?

[spoonman]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of hate for saying this, but I'm a huge INTV fan. As a kid I owned one, as well as an Atari VCS, and ColecoVision.

The new versions of classic INTV games certainly do intrigue me, but I don't see myself spending $220 - $250 to play them. If they instead released an "Intellivision Old & New Collection", (which might contain original emulated INTV classics, as well as the new remakes with more colors, better sound, more features), for the PS4/Switch/Steam. I'd gladly pay $29.99 for that.

 

I know I know.. The Amico controller is a must.. LED lights, RFID, touch screen, etc.. Well the Switch can do touch screen, NFC wireless, motion controls, and 3D aiming via iR camera in JoyCon, and the PS4 DualShock 4 has dual analog sticks, a digital pad, 10 digital buttons, touchpad, 2 analog buttons, 2 pressure sensitive buttons, LED light bar, motion controls via six axis (3 axis gyroscope, 3 axis accelerometer), speaker, 3.5mm headphone jack, and you also have the ability to use ANY Android/iPod/iPhone device as a Second Screen.

 

If you want to see what is possible with this setup look no further than Tearaway Unfolded.

 

You can instantly take a photo from your phone or tablet and send it into the game where it becomes a high resolution texture in the game in real-time while you are playing! Or draw an object with your finger on either thr DS4's touchpad, or any mobile device and transfer that to the game as well. It also uses the touch pad extensively to create characters, control the wind, and much more.

Controls aside, t's also a very beautiful and innovative game.

 

There is plenty of functionality with current controllers for any developer to utilize here. In my opinion anyway.

[+Tommy Tallarico]

20 minutes ago, spoonman said:

I'm sure I'll get a lot of hate for saying this, but I'm a huge INTV fan. As a kid I owned one, as well as an Atari VCS, and ColecoVision.

The new versions of classic INTV games certainly do intrigue me, but I don't see myself spending $220 - $250 to play them.

You won't get any hate for that.  The system clearly isn't for you if you don't find the offering worth the money.

 

No worries.

 

 

[+Tommy Tallarico]

36 minutes ago, spoonman said:

106 million PS4 systems sold

45 million Switches sold

41 million Xbox One systems sold

---------------------------------------

192 million total for current gen console gamers

No.  You can't take the amount of consoles sold and assume that they are all individuals.  There aren't 192 million total people playing console games.  Most hardcores have 2 systems (and PC) which cuts the amount of individual people in half from the consoles "sold" numbers above.

Still don't understand what the argument with the numbers is though?  The fact still remains that 3 billion people are NOT hardcore gamers or consider themselves gamers at all.  Console gaming doesn't come within 10% of that... no matter how you add up the numbers.  There is nothing wrong with recognizing that 3 billion people play casual games and that we feel we know the reason and are going to be marketing and attempting to capture a percentage of that.

I'm really at a loss here.  What's the issue?

 

 

 

[spoonman]

4 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

No.  You can't take the amount of consoles sold and assume that they are all individuals.  There aren't 192 million total people playing console games.  Most hardcores have 2 systems (and PC) which cuts the amount of individual people in half from the consoles "sold" numbers above.

Still don't understand what the argument with the numbers is though?  The fact still remains that 3 billion people are NOT hardcore gamers or consider themselves gamers at all.  Console gaming doesn't come within 10% of that... no matter how you add up the numbers.  There is nothing wrong with recognizing that 3 billion people play casual games and that we feel we know the reason and are going to be marketing and attempting to capture a percentage of that.

I'm really at a loss here.  What's the issue?

It wasn't me who started in with the numbers. I am just seeing a lot of discrepancies with them is all.

So those 3 billion casual mobile phone owners do not also game on PC, own consoles?

Are they counting mobile phones / decices which shipped with Snake or Bejeweled pre-installed as "casual gamers"?

 

And yeah, the numbers don't really mean much. Aren't those 3 billion casual gamers content with gaming on their phones? Why would they want to buy a new console to play games which are very similar to what they can already play? 

 

And going back to "granny"... They love their Wii Sports! Bowling and Tennis in particular is what is always playing on Wii's at retirement and assisted living (homes). What would make them want to ditch their still functional Nintendo Wii + Wii Sports? Will the Amico have games such as those? I'm honestly curious here.

 

[m-crew]

For an example My Brother is a hardcore online gamer. 
He does own all 2 of the big three consoles. (Not the switch is not a fan of Nintendo )

when a new gen comes out for the Xbox and PS , He always upgrades both units and discards there last gen. 

Also that number of 3 billion casual gamers is the market that the Amico is going for. Not suggesting that they will get the whole market but a percentage of that market. 
 

Aways deflecting to the same points that we been hearing from the same few. 
It’s just not sinking in to some. 

 

wow a viscous circle.  
 

[MrBeefy]

7 hours ago, Swami said:

Three things Ouya did wrong from the start, despite selling 100s of 1000s of consoles:

1. Problematic controller and WiFi

2. No great games and non-existent curation

3. Slow getting the consoles shipped

 

I think 3 was probably a forgive and forget if 1 and 2 were handled. I think IE is trying very hard to not repeat 1 and 2. If meeting the $100 mark resulted in the bad controllers and WiFi, they should have broke it. 

 

7 hours ago, Tavi said:

The big problem is the controllers are proprietary to the Amico.

It is not like a Nintendo or PlayStation where if they give you a cheap controller, you can just get one you like better and use it instead.

Tommy had mentioned many times the controllers are unique, and Amico games are going to be specifically designed for them. While you can use a cellphone or alternate controller, and I believe mention at one time was made Bluetooth controllers can link to the console, you will not be getting the full experience.

In short, the console at launch is going to sink or swim in no small part by how the controllers work. The Amico can have the best games ever made, but if the controllers are poor and there is no real alternative to using them, the system is going to rapidly get bad reviews and for a smaller company looking to get themselves (re)established that kind of talk can hurt their sales badly.

I would think that the consoles controllers are one place they absolutely cannot cheap out on.

That is true if the originals were that bad it would be an aid in sinking it.